Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 16. Jul 2011, 12:29

Hello friends,
I would indicate Sieger No..#120.Cb) as one of the serious Sieger’s errors. The fundamental error is that the number of similar letters (with perforeted russian stamps with Malygin’s postmark 18.07.1931, but not 27.07.1931) are several dozen, versus the hundred pieces of No..#120.Ca). It is clear, that the value of this items is lowered at least a few times. I know only a few items, one is in my collection. In Michel this type of mail (the perforeted russian stamps with Malygin’s postmark 18.07.1931) is absent (See p.119 No.205 A f-i).
The rarity of this type is explained that russian perforated stamps (Mi.# 402A-405A and 402C-405C) were been issued only 24.07.1931, as also described in Sieger. How they could come there? There are some ways:
1) A small amount of perforated stamps (from signal sheets) were taken on board the icebreaker “Malygin” from Archangelsk 19.07.1931, for example: to distinguish the mails used on board the icebreaker “Malygin” during sailing, from other mails, prepared on the earth?
2) The stamps were delivered on the board of the icebreaker “Malygin” between 19.07.1931 and 27.07.1931, but how?
3) The stamps were delivered on the board of the icebreaker “Malygin" by LZ-127 “Graf Zeppelin” 27.07.1931 and used till exchange of the mails ?
If you have your point of view on this problem, please write. I ‘ll write my point of view in my next posts.
Best regards,
pasol.
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PolF_1931_15_1a.jpg
Sieger No..#120.Cb
PolF_1931_15_1a.jpg (188.27 KiB) 8240-mal betrachtet
PolF_1931_15_2a.jpg
PolF_1931_15_2a.jpg (123.33 KiB) 8240-mal betrachtet
Zuletzt geändert von pasol am 21. Jul 2011, 10:23, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon Zeppelin » 17. Jul 2011, 11:38

What is the perforation of the stamps? 12,5x12,5 or 12x12,5?
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 17. Jul 2011, 12:54

Sehr geehrter @Zeppelin,
All stamps have the perforation 12 x 12 1/4. The type of the perforation is comb.
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pasol.
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon Zeppelin » 18. Jul 2011, 14:16

Hello Pasol,

this is a very interesting cover, and as you said already, it raises some even more interesting questions!

Do you have the Russian postal bulletin with the announcement of the Russian Polar Flight stamp issue? It would be interesting to learn what was announced by the Russian postal service.

Especially I am interested to learn what the announced (!) first day was: All catalogues say that the first day of the imperforated issue was 18 July 1931 and the first day of the perforated issue was 25 July 1931. Well this can easily be said because the earliest recorded date of postmarks on the imperforated issue is 18 July 1931 (on board the Malyguin) and the earliest recorded usage of the perforated stamps is 25 July 1931 (at Leningrad). But is the earliest recorded usage (18/25 July 1931) also the first day as per the announcement in the postal bulletin?????

This information might help to answer some questions - your cover is the first I see with the perforated stamps being postmarked before the first day on 25 July 1931: Your cover was postmarked on 18 July 1931, this is one week before the first day on 25 July 1931. A remarkable discrepancy....

So coming back to your cover, and here are my two theories:
(1) Your cover is genuine and they had indeed both stamps (perforated and imperforated) loaded when the Malyguin left Archangelsk on 19 July 1931. The question why they (almost) only used the imperforated and not the perforated stamps needs some more research and attention. The official announcement of the Russian postal bulletin might help to answer this question.
(2) Your cover is not genuine and they only had loaded the imperfoarted stamps when the Malyguin left Archangelsk on 19 July 1931.

So if you have the Russian postal bulletin with the announcement, please post it here and also please show us the other Malyguin dispatches with perforated Russian stamps.
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 19. Jul 2011, 05:14

Hello Zeppelin,
a lot of thank for expressing your opinion about this cover and problem.
Some facts:
1. All russian post documents specify the date of issue perforated stamps as July 24th 1931.
2.The cover is genuine, as evidenced by the origin (from the collection of one of the leaders of the Soviet philatelic assoiation in 1931, who ordered this cover to I.Papanin ) and confirmation (oral, in the early 80s) of the Malygin's postmaster - Ivan Papanin.
Best regards,
pasol.
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 20. Jul 2011, 05:45

Hello friends,
the Malygin's postmaster Mr.I.Papanin wrote about these events:
"...we quickly settled down for the preparation of correspondence to load to the zeppelin. Our small room survived the siege of passengers: everyone wanted to get as many envelopes and stamps.
At 11:00 we received a new message from the zeppelin: the fog delayed its arrival, it will fly to us about six o'clock in the evening. We got a short break and extended for another few hours of our post office...".
Mr.Papanin wrote this message 27th July 1931, before this date no informations about preparation mails on board of the icebreaker. There is the information only about sending the telegrams.
Latest number of registered letter, prepared on the earth is #4009 (about this letter I have accurate information). Thus the number of letters prepeared on board of Icebreaker does not exceed several dozen (between #4009 and #4075). It acknowledges the message of Mr.I.Papanin that the post office on board of icebreaker "Malygin" was working just a few hours only 27th July 1931.
The main feature of these letters, on my opinion: the registered number (R-Zittel) about #4050s and the absence of giding stamp: "mit...Archangelsk-Nordpol-Friedrichshafen".
Best regards,
pasol.
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PolF 1931 07a.jpg
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 30. Aug 2012, 21:20

Hello friends,
now I can show next similar the super rare item Sieger No.#120 Cb (with perforeted russian stamps with Malyguin’s postmark 18.07.1931 !), but it is postcard. The address erased from the postcard, but it can be identified by virtue of remaining parts and arrival stamp of Moscow 03.08.1931.It was sent to well-known German stamps dealer Karl Hennig.
The excellent feature of this card is that it gives the answers to all the questions formulated earlier. According the registered number of this card (R-Zittel #3897) and common form of post card (it has a giding stamp used on this line: " mit... Archangelsk-Nordpol-Friedrichshafen"), it proves that the card was prepared among the main group of mails franked imperforated stamps at July 18th, 1931 in Archangelsk. All stamps on the postcard have too a combined perforation 12 x 12 1/4.
So it becomes clear that at least a small part of these Zeppelin russian perforated stamps (with combined perforation 12 x 12 1/4)were issued at July 18th, 1931 together with imperforated...instead July 24th,1931 according the official report of Soviet postal authorities :P.

Best regards,
pasol.
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Sieger Nr.# 120 Cb _2.jpg
Sieger Nr.# 120 Cb _2.jpg (89.48 KiB) 7522-mal betrachtet
Empfaenger.jpg
Empfaenger.jpg (80.92 KiB) 7522-mal betrachtet
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 31. Aug 2012, 12:12

...this is usual type of mails of this type with imperforated stamps.
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PolarF_1931_Russia_77a.jpg
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 5. Sep 2012, 12:32

Dear friends,
thus it can be argued that the following types of Russian mail of this LZ-127 Polar Flight 1931 with russian Zeppelin stamps exist, total quantity about 10,500 items (according to the numbers of registered mail):

1) there were sent from Archangelsk with Icebreaker "Malygin" 18th July, 1931 for delivery and loading to LZ-127 near Franz-Josef-Land with the russian special flight cachet 18.07.1931 (Malygin), most have guiding stamp (type I) in three lines "Mit ...ARCHANGELSK-NORDPOL-FRIEDRICHSHAFEN":
1.1) postcard and letters are franking imperforated stamps -Si.#120.Aa) & #120.Ab), total quantity about 4000 items (from registered No.#1 to No.#4009 ...at least, till No.#3500 addressed to "Luftschiffbau, Friedrichshafen"), including several dozen with full stamps set - Si.#120.Ac);
1.2) postcard and letters are franking perforated stamps, total quantity not more 20 items ...I know 3 items... (they have not Sieger's catalog individual number), including some with full stamps set - Si.#120.Cb)...I know 1 item, it is shown above... :D !!!

2) there were sent from Leningrad with LZ-127 25th July, 1931 for delivery and loading to Icebreaker "Malygin" near Franz-Josef-Land with two russian special flight cachet 25.07.1931(Leningrad) and 27.07.1931(Malygin), most have guiding stamp (type II) in three lines"Mit ...LENINGRAD-NORDPOL":
2.1) postcard and letters are franking imperforated stamps, total quantity about 5800 items (from registered No.#1 to No.#6013 ...at least) -Si.#120.Ba) & #120.Bb), from No.#1 till No.#2999 addressed to Mr. Wiese/Malygin, including about 50 items with full stamps set - Si.#120.Ac;
2.2) postcard and letters are franking perforated stamps, total quantity about one hundred items, most of which with full stamps set- Si.#120.Ca .

3) there were sent from Leningrad with LZ-127 25th July, 1931 for delivery to Friedrichshafen with the russian special flight cachet 25.07.1931(Leningrad), most have guiding stamp (type III) in two lines" Mit...Leningrad-Friedrichshafen"(they have not Sieger's catalog individual number, only remark on p.136), they are mixed with the registered numbers of the previous second group, the minimal registered number is No.#5075:
3.1) postcard and letters are franking imperforated stamps, total quantity about 300 items, including some with full stamps set;
3.2) postcard and letters are franking perforated stamps, total quantity some items, some (probably) with full stamps set.

4) there were sent from board Icebreaker "Malygin" 27th July, 1931 (but canceled with date 18th July ,1931...as I see it) thru LZ-127 to Friedrichshafen with the russian special flight cachet 18.07.1931(Malygin), without usual guiding stamp(they have not Sieger's catalog individual number) about registered numbers #4050s-4070s in registered numbers of first group:
4.1) postcard and letters are franking imperforated stamps, total quantity about some dozen items, including some with full stamps set;
4.2) postcard and letters are franking perforated stamps, total quantity some items, some with full stamps set...I know 1 item,it is shown above... :D !!!
...an existence of suchlike genuine mail from the board Icebreaker "Malygin" only with the russian special flight cachet 27.07.1931(Malygin) is the subject of debates now on this forum:
http://www.ezeptalk.de/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=379

P.S...total quantity of rare items must be updated...
Best regards,
pasol.
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Re: Sieger's value error Nr.#120 Cb

Beitragvon pasol » 5. Dez 2012, 06:38

Dear friends,

it is the page from my collection with these rare types 1.2 and 4.2 of LZ-127 Polar flight 1931 mail ... it was spent 7 years from first to second item..."Good hunting" 8-) .

Best regards,
pasol.
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PolarF_1931_15.jpg
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